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Season 2, Episode 15: Turn Complexity into Opportunity with the Total Workforce Index™

In this episode we focus on the 2021 Total Workforce Index™ (TWI) and explain to our listeners how using the TWI can help them navigate change: from location strategy and balancing remote and onsite workers to restructuring decisions and meeting diversity and inclusion goals. In this episode we learn more about what the TWI is and what it measures. We discuss the five key emerging themes that are impacting labor markets around the world as well as the investment opportunities across three key growth sectors: digital services, advanced manufacturing and clean energy. We also learn how employers are leveraging the TWI and what we can expect as we enter 2022. 

Download the 2021 TWI Summary Report.

Hosts: Roberta Cucchiaro and Dominika Gałusa

This podcast is also available on the following platforms:


Full Transcript

Intro (00:01): The future of work and the future for workers is changing. From new technologies and talent strategies to the management of tomorrow's work force. Tap in to ManpowerGroup Talent Solutions' 60 years of expertise and join us for the Transformed Talent Podcast, your guide to talent market trends, new technologies, and winning talent solutions.

Roberta Cucchiaro (00:31): Hello, and welcome to the 15th episode of the Transform Talent Podcast, and actually the last episode of 2021. We are your hosts, Roberta Cucchiaro.

Dominika Galusa (00:43): …and Dominika Galusa. Today we're going to focus on the newly released 2021 Total Workforce Index, also referred to as TWI. We want to explain to our listeners how using the TWI can help them navigate change, from location strategy and balancing remote and onsite workers to restructuring decisions and meeting diversity and inclusion goals.

Roberta Cucchiaro (01:10): So to speak about the TWI, we are joined today by our two colleagues, Raleen and Grantley, who have both been behind the production of this report. Raleen Gagnon, she's the VP of Global Marketing Intelligence for Talent Solutions. Welcome, Raleen.

Raleen Gagnon (01:27): Thank you, so happy to be here.

Roberta Cucchiaro (01:29): And Grantley Morgan, who's our Global Practice Lead and VP for Talent Solutions Consulting. Welcome, Grantley.

Grantley Morgan (01:36): Hi Roberta, it's great to be here. And I'll thank our listeners to tune in to the latest talent insights from ManpowerGroup.

Roberta Cucchiaro (01:42): Thank you. So welcome, everyone. And let's start with you, Raleen. So the Total Workforce Index is in its eighth year, and it has evolved every year. Can you give us an overview of what the TWI is? So what it measures and which factors and markets it analyzes.

Raleen Gagnon (02:02): Absolutely. And how exciting is it that this is the last of something in 2021?So the TWI was designed to really examine the factors in the marketplace that are going to most impact global employers as they make decisions around their workforce planning, their global capacity, their expansion, which markets they should invest in or pull back from. Over the years, the data points that we've looked at have grown, expanded, and frankly, evolved in keeping with the times. In essence, most of those data points and factors that we look at fall under either talent supply, where you can access that talent globally best, the cost associated with accessing that talent supply based on the factors in a given market and the skills that an organization is looking for, and of course, the regulations that can impact not only that cost we just spoke about, but how you go about engaging those workers, and what the policies and the procedures need to be.

And lastly, the productivity. Not so much the widgets that you can produce in-country, but the amount of labor that you can get out of an individual resource given that there may be restrictions around overtime or the amount of hours in workday or workweek, et cetera. And of course, lastly, we've added in a number of remote factors to help provide some indication of where best one can tap into virtual talent globally today.

Dominika Galusa (03:22): So Raleen, a lot has happened in the last year, particularly so from a workforce perspective. We have all heard about the Great Resignation and the Great Reawakening, but putting headlines aside, what are the key themes that have emerged from this year's TWI?

Raleen Gagnon (03:39): Well, most organizations would argue that they've had very unique things occur within their organization, but the reality is that we've seen some common threads across the board, regardless of where an organization is based or what they do with their workforce and their organization itself. You know, from legislation, border closing, the migration of talent that we've seen and the escalating cost associated with tapping into certain talent pools, we've seen organizations really re-examine how they've been structuring and trying to engage and manage their workforce historically and look outside of themselves to see, "What are other organizations doing? Where could we be doing this more efficiently or with potential cost savings? How can we adjust our strategy, what we used to look at from an off-shore or a near-shore perspective, and what will that look like for us?

So in the way that we've partnered with organizations in this past year, we've had quite a few who've looked to near-shore. They're not necessarily looking to expand their global footprint, but rather strengthen and enhance their investments in certain countries and augment that with talents in nearby communities. In some cases, this means they're able to expand the access that they have to certain types of candidates; in other cases, it means that they can do some cost avoidance and find a lower cost market to tap into a talent pool and avoid some of the competition that has really been straining some of the organizations trying to employ talent today; in other cases, it's been more around evaluating, "Where have legislative constraints changed the way we're able to operate, and impacted our performance, and perhaps, impacted how much turnover we're suffering from? Where can we go or how can we address this so that we can invest more in our people, and not do so in a way that impacts our bottom line?"

Roberta Cucchiaro (05:27): Over to you, Grantley. You know, this year's paper takes a closer look at the macro-level TWI data to identify market characteristics of Mature, Emerging and Incubator Markets. So I would like to learn more about these markets, and what are the main strengths and weaknesses of these three markets?

Grantley Morgan (05:46): It's a great question, and we see the major differential here being digital skills readiness of the workforces at large. So if you ignore the fact that suddenly the markets have seen a degree larger than, than others, we're looking at the overall rate of digital skill development and other factors linked to those labor markets. And when we look at mature labor markets, we've seen a rapid shift to digital consumer behaviors compounded by digital ways of working, and what that's meaning is that we're up to nine and ten workers age 25 or over in virtual markets are totally educated. They have a greater learning absorbency factor. They can gain digital skills much quicker, meaning that re-skilling investments will pay off sooner. And this backbone will become its forum for digital skills ranking.

Example of this is IKEA. So at the onset of the pandemic, IKEA took a decision to protect its global workforce, giving that workforce financial security, including in some 20 countries that didn't provide that within their labor market. And as they did so, they set the workforce a challenge: "We'll give you the security, we'll give you the time to gain digital skills, but the challenge is to rapidly build our eCommerce capabilities to pivot our business to those new, changing consumer behaviors." IKEA closed 2020 with a record 40 billion euros of revenue from those eCommerce platforms, which really proves that when you can rapidly build capabilities, then you can see the bottom line impact of that.

So we see Mature Markets as the obvious choice for those re-skilling investments. The drawback, of course, is wage inflation that we're now seeing in mature economies as workforces re-skill and workers move up the value chain. And that causes acute talent shortages as workers are stepping away from jobs in some sectors, whether that's entry level or some of the issues we're seeing in areas like world haulage, where the work is, is less attractive. So we can contrast that with Emerging Markets. In Emerging Markets, only two in five workers aged in that 25 or above category are totally educated. And workers typically receive less workplace training, as well. So that learning absorbency, that digital skill readiness reduces, and their ability to gain digital skills is largely employer dependent. That means it's an opportunity for employers that are making long-term bets in the market, but they need to step into the role of educator. And then they gain a younger workforce, which typically works at much lower rates of pay, so you get the labor arbitrage factor, as well.

So we see this trend continuing for employers that have location-dependent work, where work isn't likely to move remote. You can look at Tesla's investment in Chinese Giga factories, or the deep commitments of Chinese companies to battery manufacture. So those investments are being made. What's less certain is where emerging economies that have been service-orientated go in the future as more workers are moving into the contingent labor category and employers consider adopting similar sourcing strategies. So if we think about microservices, if we think about Statement of Work as a sourcing category, these give us a more agile way of switching to a variable cost model. And as employers consider that, we may see a hollowing out of the emerging market service-related work.

And that finally takes us to Incubators. These are markets that blend ready now and ready later skills, so we've got a modest rate of labor arbitrage, we still hedge the problem of wage inflation in Mature Markets. But we see in areas such as Advanced Manufacturing or Clean Energy, there is a ready-made skill pool there that we can reduce the planet impact in the supply chain if we move some of those manufacture operations in particular into a near-shore location.

Raleen Gagnon (09:40): You know, I think you touched upon something fantastic when you referenced the flexibility that organizations could leverage when they were looking at some of these markets, and looking at what their workforce mix could or should be. Because one of the key assets in the TWI is the insight into the legislation itself. When we look at those regulatory constraints, it can actually provide guidance in an organization's evaluation of: when will there be greater benefit to tap into the SOW or the contingent worker aspect of their workforce strategy? And that can vary from one country to another, even in those Incubator Markets or in those Mature Markets, and I just thought that was an important call out to add.

Dominika Galusa (10:20): So Grantley and Raleen, you have also looked at opportunities for investments across the three market categories in three key growth sectors, which are: Digital Services, Advanced Manufacturing and Clean Energy. So I have a question to both of you: what are the advantages in broadening organizational boundaries in the search for growth talent?

Grantley Morgan (10:43): You're right. We looked first at Digital Services. And if we put that into a past where you might want to talk about more as we go through the podcast, it's not about that in relation to the automotive sector, and particularly e-mobility. So this incubator around digital service is largely driven by inward R&D investment in markets such as Taiwan, in South Korea, but also we see it in Ireland as well. And it speaks to the role that governments play in building an investing category defining capabilities. So if you think about Taiwan's lead on semi-conductor manufacture, that's been a capability built since the 1970s and 1980s. And what we see there is language is less of a barrier when information flows are moving between these labor markets and it's backed by investment. So such investment can contribute to higher rates of digital skills and training, and investing more in labor markets and diversifying the supply of these skills can help secure component supply.

So if we put that into the automotive sector, the reason those of you maybe ordered cars, particularly from the European producers, but generally across the industry, and might be waiting 18 months or longer for their order fulfillment is because of the shortage of semi-conductors. And, and that kind of protection that's going on at the moment around the market supply of semi-conductors. So we're seeing Ford and other automotives form joint ventures to alleviate such challenges. And as we think about the Emergent and Incubator Markets, it helps us to really think about where we locate and build those capabilities backed by government support to do so and the political agendas we see forming in many countries for re-skilling and jobs for growth. But of course we see the real sort of hard edge of that, which is taking control of supply chains and limiting that climate impact I mentioned earlier, as well.

Raleen Gagnon (12:43): Excellent points, Grantley. And I would just add that, you know, when we look at what's happened in the overall marketplace with the increased demand for many key areas of talent, both on the professional and on the unskilled side, we also are seeing a diminished supply within many of the major markets that employers are looking to hire in. And yet, they do need to operate in those markets. So each of these skills areas that Grantley was just speaking to, whether it be Advanced Manufacturing or Clean Energy, et cetera, they serve as another solution, a strategy to augment the workforce strategy that's already in place. So in many cases, an organization already knows it must be in this particular area or Latin America or Asia, and yet, the workforce can't sustain their full hiring needs. So the Index itself can help to provide guidance into prioritizing which markets an employer needs to invest in Advanced Manufacturing or digitization.

In other areas, where government or, are, launching additional legislation or creating incentives around Clean Energy, the Index can provide insight into where an organization can gain additional advantages, partner with the government, and create programs to not only take advantage of Clean Energy skills that exist in the market, but to become a feeding ground for the development of organically growing those skills within a particular location. So there's tremendous opportunity for organizations to look at each of these areas for a multitude of reasons.

Grantley Morgan (14:08): I agree with that. And if we look next at the advanced manufacturing segment that, that we've picked out, it's really important to consider that in these labor markets we're considering, the presence of contingent work doesn't make repugnant work any less secure. In fact, what we're largely seeing is that up to 40% of contingent work in Mature Markets is high skilled work, and Incubators are beginning to reflect that, too. So as we think about Advanced Manufacturing capabilities and where we build our prototypes, where we conduct R&D on battery design, on electric vehicle design, and on many of the technologies for carbon capture, it's gonna be increasingly pervaded the next decade of investments to make COP26 goals we've just all heard about over the last couple of weeks, then we see the ability for employers to get into some of these Incubator Markets using a mixed blend of sourcing strategies, as Raleen mentioned that. So yes, you can make permanent bets on these markets, because the skills that I've mentioned earlier are ready now, they're also ready later.

We can also find flexible pools of contingent talent. If you look at European countries such as Austria or Czechia, these are rapidly becoming alternative sites for manufacturing operations in mobility, in Life Sciences, and in other very prominent manufacturing industries. So although we see the headlines of Tesla moving to the, the, the Gigafactory in Berlin, realistically, there is a much broader set of countries for you to consider as clients in your location strategies, and really believe that this configuration is Rubik's Cube-like configuration of Mature, Emerging and Incubator Markets is the way to go. But we don't see this as a sort of one dimensional decision point; we see this as a blended, you know, the optimum blend of those options. So it's about looking at all the market categories in combination and where you're sourcing critical capabilities, and to do that in line with some of the government agendas that we've mentioned.

Raleen Gagnon (16:17): We have an opportunity from an employment standpoint, to not only take advantage of those trends and themes, but again, to mitigate some of the costs that are associated with the ever changing environment that we're hiring in today. In fact, I think that many of the employers who've had Advanced Manufacturing or automation within their production environment on their roadmap had held off or delayed and been quite incremental in their investments at some point, but now with the pandemic accelerating that need to invest in these areas, its tied to, "Where should we make that, that investment? Should it broadly across all production facilities at one time, or is there an opportunity to do a phased approach that's going to have a greater impact on our business and our efficiencies?"

And that, too, is where many of our, our clients have worked with us on the data in the Index to identify where are the markets that may not have as robust of a talent pool for traditional manufacturing, but where we can, in a lower, in a lower cost threshold environment, implement some of these investments and have that workforce augment our needs in a different way. It enables them to phase into this in a way that mitigates some of the dramatic change that many organizations are trying to avoid at the moment because it's so volatile.

Roberta Cucchiaro (17:32): And Raleen, you have been involved with the TWI for several years now, and I'm really curious also to learn from you: how have employers been using the TWI, and what has remained constant across all these years? But what has also changed?

Raleen Gagnon (17:50): So many things it feels have changed. We started with 34 data points, and we are now at over 200 data points, so we got in quite a bit over time. I would say that, increasingly, language proficiency has become a huge consideration from any organizations as they've taken their strategies from a regional perspective to truly a more global one. So historically, we have looked at English proficiency; just during the pandemic we've added in a number of other languages, and each year we intend to continue to add more as organizations invest in expanding some of their local market operations, or look to create bridges between virtual environments that are starting to emerge within their business.

So that's been something that has been a constant need for some and has been a growing need amongst many others over the course of the past few years. I would say that in the past year, that location strategy has been the most prevalent area of focus. And it's always been something that was a foundation of how the TWI could be used, but previously, we were looking for facilities, for locations where an employer could build an operation and have a brick and mortar presence. And of course, since the pandemic, we've taken that same approach and methodology: how important is the available pool of sustainable talent? How important is the cost of that talent? How important is the regulatory impact, et cetera? And now we've been looking for ways to identify the markets where they can most effectively or advantageously source certain skillsets.

And that's the other big change that we've seen: in the past, because it was more of a brick and mortar approach to location strategy around the globe, they needed to find one location to meet all of their needs. So if they were putting in a corporate office or a satellite office, they needed to have administrative, and technical, and operations skills. Now, with the virtual and embracing of the remote strategies across the board, organizations can tap into part of India for their data analytics hub, and then go into Poland for some of their shared services operations, and then tap into Latin America for key parts of their operations, as well. And so it enables them to branch out in many more directions while still achieving the same goal. So how organizations have weighted certain data points or prioritized talent availability versus productivity has shifted.

And then last thing I'd say, is around that productivity factor itself, it used to be a driver for most of our production clients, those that were looking to have 24/7 operations associated with their production facilities. But now, today, it's more about, "How can we balance the available skills and the schedules in market in another so that we can have a chasing the sun environment of contact across multiple locations in all parts of our business, not just within that production environment?"

Dominika Galusa (20:46): So Grantley, how do you envision employers using the TWI as we look into 2022 and beyond?

Grantley Morgan (20:55): Thank you, Dominika. So I'll put this into the context of what we as a consulting practice here at Talent Solutions think about when we consider client challenges. And it speaks to that combination of dimensions in the next year that Raleen touched on. So we consider the importance of sourcing talent for growth, and understanding, and the report discusses this in much more detail, understanding the, actually in contribution to bottom line, not all talent now remains equal. And securing the capabilities that really drive growth is central to how we think the Total Workforce Index will be used going forward. And of course, that links to building of digital skills and capabilities, as we've discussed today. So challenge two would be: how do we keep the encumbered workforce moving at the same pace as technology goes?

The third challenge we focused on is how to give workers a sense of purpose, give them a sense that they are re-skilling towards a better future. So creating sustainable jobs and sustainable employment, I think, will be central to crossing those headwinds of the Great Reawakening, or the Great Resignation that we so often hear about but see changing evidence of those, and changing evidence within these labor markets. So we do think talent sustainability is gonna become very core to our work in 2022. And we can't get away from, then, managing the risk resilience and cost factors around the workforce. As we're sourcing new talent, as we're building capabilities, as we're securing the talent we already have, we know that maintaining that visibility is going to be key.

So if you ask me how this year's report and the TWI will be used in 2022, I will build it around the three themes. We see learning emerging as a core benefit, and if you're designing learning as a core benefit, as Amazon do, it guarantees supply of talent for a period of time. Now, Amazon will commit to training people and re-skilling them and moving them up the value chain, and what that gives them is six to 18 months of service before they build that supply chain through again. So they're perfectly willing to live with high rates of turnover, and they'll say, "Well, we'll pipeline the talent to that." So they're becoming a net talent creator within the workforce, or within the wider economy circle. And what that means is, learning as a defined benefit is helping companies make their bets: "Where are you going to do this? Where do you need to do this to secure the supply of talent?"

As we think about that, we're also thinking about hedging wage inflation. So you're making bets, your increasing the cost of employment in one area to secure the talent, let's say in Amazon's case, for last mile delivery. What does that mean you do around these Incubator Markets to build longer term capabilities with that wage advantage? And we can pick out those markets and decide, very strategically, what capabilities we sight in those markets.

And thirdly, take a total talent lens to this. So I think too often, we're guilty of thinking, "I've got an immediate need and it has to be a permanent hire," and we're seeing this emergence of the contingent work category. And that's part worker preferences, it's part the availability of skills and the diversity of some of those skills and workers that are now available in the contingent category. But it's also this idea of flexibility, of moving to more variable cost models, and I think what we're really seeing is employers considering that, signaling that. How does it change your operating model though, and how do we build services extensively when we might be dependent on other organizations to deliver those? So that, of course, brings an innate talent transformation challenge, but we're up for that challenge, and we think our client should be up for that challenge, too.

So I think it's using the Total Workforce Index to inform where we're making learning investments. Where are we investing in these emerging incubator categories? And then, where are we balancing our use of, of sourcing categories, and particularly the growth in microservices, for real agility. And all of those three things are motivated by bottom line impact. So I'd encourage our listeners to hit Google, search Total Workforce Index 2021, and by the time the podcast is live, you'll be seeing our latest report with all of these insights, and many more for you to enjoy and read through. And you'll also find links on the side as to how you can get in touch with Raleen, myself, with our teams, and we'd be delighted to discuss that with you.

Roberta Cucchiaro (25:40): Yeah, absolutely. And we do have one last question for both of you, before we let you go, and it's a question we do like to ask our guests. So imagine we get ourselves in a time machine and we fast forward to 2052. What do you think the TWI would be about by then?

Raleen Gagnon (26:02): Well, I’m going to go first.

Grantley Morgan (26:02): I was so excited by this question.

Roberta Cucchiaro (26:02): Who goes first?

Raleen Gagnon (26:07): Do you wanna go first? I don't wanna steal your thunder.

Grantley Morgan (26:11): Yeah, yeah. I was so excited by this question, and I was thinking about this year in terms of what we're seeing around the emergence of these new capabilities. So I'd like to stick with the electric vehicle transition for a second. Really interesting that technology cycles are getting shorter, and the curves are getting steeper. And so there are a number of employers out there now that are making bets that actually, batteries are transitionary technology. And we need that to get us through the decade, but if you look at what Johnson Matthey and others are doing now, is betting on the hydrogen fuel cell as longer term and more sustainable technology choice for e-mobility, and, and for transport in the future. So if those technology cycles continue to shorten, the skill adjustments are going to be equally as rapid, and then gonna become more difficult for incumbent employers to keep pace with those skill adjustments.

And then we're seeing new learning habits in newer workforce generations. And that, in some ways, reinforces this change in buying habits, because millennials are much more likely to invest in their own career development and self-development independently of their employers, but conversely, they're also more likely to expect that from employers, as well. So it's gonna be a lot of re-skilling to be done. And I believe, by 2052, this all points to a closer relationship between staffing companies, educators and employers, and the way that we collaborate across these new, emerging value chains.

So I'll give you an example of where we're working on this: we are working in the new mashup industry of clean transport, of electric vehicles and the clean energy technologies that power them. And we're forming the green energy talent lines to plan, develop and deploy the skills needed to make the EV transition without losing sight of how that technology co-mixed, and enter the hydrogen fuel cell. And we're doing that, in a way, to bring companies together, to define the jobs and skills of the future in those categories, to help our clients understand, "Where are those jobs and skills being built in the education system, and how can we collaborate to get more people, whether a full-time educators, or lifelong learning services? How can we bring more people through that process?" Because if we just look at those battery technologies, based on committed capacity, it generates a global need of 1.2 million jobs. And that was committed capacity six months ago, pre-COP, looking at number of gigawatt hours that are committed across the globe.

So 1.2 million jobs to find in battery manufacture, and I think that's gonna lead to staffing companies moving increasingly into the educator space. And ManpowerGroup have been at the heart of that with our academy model, which is built, at the moment, for digital skills in particular, through our Experis brand, and we'll be rapidly looking at how we can bring that into electric vehicles and battery technologies. So much more to come from the green energy talent alliance, but I think you're gonna see much closer relationships emerge from those new value chains.

Roberta Cucchiaro (29:27): Thank you, Grantley. Actually, I really liked what you're saying in terms of bringing closer together the staffing, the educators and, and the employers. It will lead to much brighter future. So very good 2052. How about you, Raleen?

Raleen Gagnon (29:40): Well, I think the direction that Grantley just took us down is exactly how organizations are gonna be using the Index in that time, in that time period. You know, but when I think about how that will structurally change the Index, it's going to be in sync with those themes, because it evolves as employers needs and requirements shift. And so that means we're probably going to see an emergence or, or a subdivision that was in that regulatory section that we've always tracked, that sort of breaks down the areas of, of legislation that shift how organizations are able to engage this talent. And also, how organizations are able to leverage the different institutions and the different pathways within those various markets.

I also think there's going to be a shift in how employers are tapping into talent. Because we are in a very role-driven workforce dynamic today, where organizations are still driving their planning and their strategy around roles and functions. And in the future, it's gonna become about skills. We're already seeing that happen with data analytics; you have data analysis embedded into every function within the business, and the roles become really an indication of the skills that are being leveraged. And so we see a lot of confusion in job taxonomy today. We have a number of global clients who are quite innovative, and have already started to build out skills-driven models as opposed to role-driven models in their strategies, and I think the Index will flex to enhance and adopt that moving forward, as the general workforce trends shift in that direction.

Roberta Cucchiaro (31:10): Thank you, Raleen. And that's a very good point, as well. And something to remember, that it's, it's about skills, not necessarily roles anymore, and it will links us well with the education piece and the up-skilling. So wow, that’s very, very interesting, and I look forward to seeing if your predictions are right.

Grantley Morgan (31:28): Well, a lot of vision, particularly around the infusions we've said there of new value chains and new relationship of educators and staffing companies, and that skills transition we're speaking to. What happens if, in 2052, we're able to make learning more financially sustainable for students? We're able to introduce, at much earlier stages, their relationship, not with one single employer, but with a category of employers built around this value chain, and offer the immersive experiential career development program. Where if you imagine a grand scheme today, you're bound to one employer, and then you take that and you bind it to five or six, and you give people entering the workplace the ability to experience work in Norway, to the go and experience work in Spain, to go and experience work in China, to bring those skills back into the US. And you're doing that through companies that are sponsoring the talent program there. So, you know, if you've got a staffing company at the core, you've got companies then sponsoring that. And the advantage of learners going into those programs is that they pay less back for the education that they've received.

So I think that's the future. I think it's making the move into highly skilled industries where we know that the number of jobs requiring a degree level entry point is increasing, we have to make that more financially sustainable. And if we can do that whilst giving people back that beauty of travel, that beauty of getting in the room, getting onsite, getting together with people, bringing work back to that community feel that we've all missed through the pandemic, I think we'd have done something very, very good. And hopefully, it won't take until 2052 to get there.

Roberta Cucchiaro (33:10): Yeah, exactly my thoughts. So hopefully, it will be sooner than then. But thank you so much for joining us today on the 15th episode of the Transform Talent Podcast. We do hope that you have enjoyed this episode as much as we did. And as Grantley mentioned, we do have also all of the links to the TWI on the podcast description. And to all our listeners, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review in your favorite podcast listening app. But before we go...

Dominika Galusa (33:39): We would like to thank you for sticking with us for 15 episodes. And we have now reached to the end of the year, we hope you have some great holidays planned for December and can take some time off to relax with your families. We wish you a Happy Christmas and Happy New Year, and see you at the next episode in January 2022.

Roberta Cucchiaro (34:03): See you in the new year! Thank you and bye-bye for now!

Dominika Galusa (34:07): Bye!

Outro (34:12): The Transform Talent Podcast, because we know the right talent transforms organizations and helps your business flourish. Talent Solutions: business and talent, aligned